Christianity is Violent according to David Wood

 

Sami Zaatari

 

 

 

Just recently as many of you know, I had a series of debates with David Wood on whether Islam is a religion of Peace, and whether Christianity is a religion of peace:

 

Part 1: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=e8VghXN8SGg&feature=related (Watch David set a stipulation that for me to prove Christianity is not a religion of peace I must show where Christians are called to commit violence)

 

Part 2: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ9yODRnrSk&feature=related

 

Part 3: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YbtfuEdK5pg&feature=related

 

Part 4: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vEJe1xClfEY

 

 

During the debate Wood demanded I show him where the NT shows that Christians are allowed to commit violence, which I did by citing 2 Timothy 3:16.

 

Another argument I kept using was the parable of Luke which shows Jesus returning and killing those who reject him. Now David got lucky, because when I kept referring to the parable of Luke, which reads like this:

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

During the debate I kept saying that Jesus will kill them, yet the passage actually says that Jesus' followers will kill the disbelievers! Hence David Wood's criteria and challenge as met, he asked for the evidence, he asked where does the NT advocate Christians to commit violence, well we just saw it from Luke 19:27 which shows that Christians will kill the disbelievers before their lord and master.

Now David knows he is in a big hole, he knows he got smoked so bad that he issued a PRE damage article! He knew I was going to make this article as I had mentioned it on his blog, and he has come out with a reply: http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008/10/on-deception-of-sami-zaatari-part-one.html

Wood finally gets to the point and writes:

Here Sami refers to Luke 19:11-27, where Jesus gives the "Parable of the Ten Minas." Jesus tells a story about a king who goes away, then returns, and orders that those who have rebelled against him should be killed. According to Sami, the ones doing the killing are Christians. Hence, Christians are going to kill lots of people. The implication is that Christians will ultimately shed a lot of blood. But there's a problem with Sami's claim--he simply has no clue what he's talking about. He obviously hasn't read the New Testament, apart from verses contained in the arguments he steals from other people's websites. How do I know this? Well, anyone who has studied the Gospels at all knows that Jesus' servants who will carry out his judgement are the angels, not human beings. If you check the parables, Jesus' "servants" who judge are the angels. He even tells us this in Matthew 13:39.

RESPONSE

 Just because my argument has been made by other people means I stole it? Many of David's arguments are the same garbage repeated by his fellow cross worshiping Christians from centuries of the old, as well as many anti-Islamic websites. So did David ?steal' those arguments as well?

Now to the main point at hand, David claims that the people who do kill in the parable of Luke are the angels. There is one point to note, this cross worshipping pagan David Wood ADMITS THAT WHEN JESUS COMES BACK, THE ANGELS WILL KILL EVERYONE WHO REJECTS JESUS! So David admits this, yet at the same time him and his fellow comrades will go preaching Christianity has no violence, and that Jesus is a prince of peace who never fights or kills! And after he admits this he still claims Christianity is a religion of peace! I mean who is he trying to kid with this nonsense?!

Now to the parable, the parable itself refutes David's claim that the people who kill in Luke are angels, I shall quote the parable again in full, and you will see that the Parable CLEARLY states that it will be HUMANS who do the killing:

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Luke 19:11-27)

So notice, the disciples expected the kingdom of God to appear at once, and that Jesus would be the ruler and overthrow the evil oppressors. Yet it was still not the time for that, so Jesus gave them a parable which summed his position up, he wasn't going to reign just yet, rather he was going to for a while, and then he would return and take his kingdom. Now during his absence, when he leaves his kingdom the king shall leave HIS SERVANTS BEHIND, and that they shall occupy the kingdom while he is gone, in other words the servants are the Christians, and they are also the Church etc. Then Jesus makes the point that he will return as king, and will question those whom he left behind, Jesus will come back and question the Church, and check how they have done in spreading the message of the Gospel, after Jesus checks what has happened, he then orders them to bring his enemies (the people who rejected him) and to kill them before his eyes.

In the entire CONTEXT the servants in reference here are HUMANS, the CHURCH, and the FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST.

Had the servants been angels then the parable would have said that the king would come back with other servants from another land, and that these servants would carry out the punishment, yet Jesus makes no such claim.

So the parable itself refutes David's desperate interpretation. Now David claims that Matthew 13 explains that it is clearly the angels who carry out the killing, such as in Matthew 13:30, and Matthew 13:39 which reads:

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (Matthew 13:30)

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; (Matthew 13:39-41)

David has now created a straw man, while failing to refute my clear evidence. I NEVER SAID THAT ANGELS WILL NOT BE INVOLVED, what I said is that HUMANS WILL BE INVOLVED IN THE KILLING, hence David showing angels will kill as well only means that both angels and humans will be involved in this blood-bath.

Hence David created a straw man and must show where I ever denied that angels will be involved; perhaps David will quote one of my comments from his blog where I wrote:

lol lol lol his believers are angels, David i like you, but that just made me laughhhhhhhhhhhhhh, even you dont believe that! everyone knows those believers mentioned in Luke are HUMANS, your giving your view, which isnt agreed upon by other scholars. sorry.

Indeed the evidence from the parable of Luke clearly shows that Jesus was talking to his human servants and ordering them to carry the act out. It is laughable and amusing to claim that the only ones to act out the punishment are the angels when the parable's language and context is so clearly referring to humans in Luke chapter 19.

Hence I never denied angels are believers and will carry out a punishment, what I do deny is to claim that it is the angels ONLY who will carry out the killing, that is the laughable and amusing part, so Wood has just created a straw man and has yet to refute the fact that Luke CLEARLY points to the human servants of Jesus doing the killing.

Again folks, go read the Parable of Luke, Jesus leaves the kingdom, he leaves his Church behind, he comes back and questions his Church and how their ministry has gone, and then after that he orders his enemies to be brought before him and to be killed, all the referencing and communication is between Jesus and his Church which is made up of human Christians. No where in the parable of Luke does it say that the king returns with an army, it simply says he returns, questions his Church, and then makes the order on them bring his enemies and to kill. 

Let us quote the ending of the parable again to CLEARLY see that humans will be involved:

 AND HE SAID UNTO THEM THAT STOOD BY, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) For I say unto YOU, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, BRING HITHER, and slay them before me. (Luke 19:24-27)

Notice the communication? Jesus is CLEARLY speaking to his HUMAN servants whom he left behind, he is speaking to his Church. The whole time he is talking to them and then he finally ends by TELLING THEM to BRING HIS ENEMIES and kill them before him. The whole parable starts from verse 11, Jesus the king is speaking and communicating with his human servants, the Church, this fact cannot be denied as the text makes it clear. No where are angels alluded to here, David has to show us where in Luke 19:11-27 are angels alluded to or even mentioned! He wont be able to meet this demand, yet what can clearly be seen is that Jesus is directly speaking to human servants, to his human believers, to his Church.

David quoting Matthew 13 refutes none of the above, I repeat, all it shows is that BOTH humans AND angels will carry out the punishment.

Secondly, there is also another way to combine Matthew 13 along with Luke 19. When Jesus speaks of the angels carrying out the judgement in Matthew 13 this is most likely referring to the angels who take the souls after people die and then cast them into the hellfire. So Matthew 13 talks about the angels throwing the people into the fire, while in Luke it is humans who carry out the physical punishment in this world, all of this happens together at the same time. Once the humans kill the disbelievers, the angels will deal with the souls and the aftermath of death, which is sending them to the hell-fire.

Notice when one reads both Matthew 13:30 and Matthew 13:39-41 it talks about how the angels will BURN the disbelievers. Hence it is very plausible to say that Humans will kill the disbelievers in front of Jesus as Luke 19 says, and then after this the angels will collect their souls from the grave and throw them into the hellfire.

So in conclusion Wood has refuted nothing, he has simply created a straw man, and he has simply ignored the clear and proper communicational context between Jesus and his human Church within the parable of Luke 19.

Christianity is a religion of violence according to David Wood's own criteria, case closed.

And Indeed Allah Knows Best!

http://www.muslim-responses.com/