They Still didn't believe he was God

 

Sami Zaatari

 

 

Sam Shamoun has come out with a recent 'reply' to my rebuttal to his three part rebuttals to my initial article which showed that the believers in the Gospel of John did not believe that Jesus was God!

 

The basic argument which I have proven is that no one in the Gospel of John believed Jesus to be God. Sadly, the missionary goes on a tirade against me, claiming I am a liar and produces links to prove that I am a liar, well only to be kind, here are links that demonstrate that Shamoun is not only a liar, but a satanic pagan according to his religion, and his own words:

 

http://answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/shamoun_the_idolator.htm

 

Shamoun writes:

 

As the readers can attest, my position has been and continues to be that the OT bears witness to the fact that there is a plurality of Divine Persons within the one Godhead. I have written extensively concerning the OT evidence that Yahweh is a spiritual Father, that the Holy Spirit is a fully Divine Person, and that there is one specific Messenger - commonly referred to as the Angel of God/Yahweh - who is not a creature but is actually God Almighty who appears to his servants and people. I have further documented that these Three are personally distinct from one another even though all of them are fully God.

 

RESPONSE

 

Which is why no OT Jew believed in such a thing, and which is why you yourself quoted the following:

 

In fact, for Jesus or any of his contemporaries to simply come out and say that he is God, in those exact words, would have caused confusion since to first-century monotheistic Jews the term "God" meant the Father who was in heaven. Thus, both Jesus and those who bore witness to him such as the Baptist had to speak in a manner that would not convey this wrong notion that Jesus is the same Person as the Father, since he was not, while at the same time making sure to communicate the point that Christ is in fact fully God in nature.

 

Now why would any Jew believe that? if the OT taught that God is three persons, then obviously if the son came and said I am God, the Jews would say 'Ah, he is one part of the Trinity God-head, yes, I see, thank you Jesus, we have been waiting for you, where have you been?'

 

In case this is too hard for Shamoun to get, then let me explain it to him in baby steps so he can comprehend what is going on, and so the readers are not tricked by Shamoun's deception.

 

-Shamoun says the Trinity is in the Bible

 

-Each member of the Trinity is God

 

-This includes the Father

 

-But is not limited to the Father

 

-So if the OT taught the Trinity, the Jews would believe the Father was one God in the God-head

 

-Likewise they would also believe the other two separate and distinct persons would be God as well

 

-Hence if one of those persons (Jesus) came to earth and said I am God, the Jews would not be confused, rather they would identify him as one member of the Trinity God-head while also acknowledging God the Father who is separate and in heaven

 

Off course this all makes sense, but since Shamoun knows he trapped himself, he is trying to save face now, and is accusing me of being a liar bla ba bla, or as his Holy Spirit inspires him to say:

Zaatari just never learns and is constantly demonstrating that he has absolutely no problem distorting the statements of his opponents. He is more interested in saving face then admitting his errors or that he simply does not understand the issues and that he is dealing with subjects that are beyond his intellectual capacity to address.

Lest we be accused of exaggeration we encourage the readers to go to the following links and read the articles as well as Zaatari's comments in the commentary box in order to see how he will either resort to lying, distort an argument, or avoid addressing the points in order to hide the fact that he doesn't have the ability to provide a coherent reply to the objections levelled against him

How nice, let us now deal with the actual claims, Shamoun writes:

 

However, even though this is what the Hebrew Bible clearly teaches the fact remains that when the term God is used in an unqualified sense it always refers to the Father. Therefore, since the OT itself bears witness that the term God refers to the Father, unless there is something in the context to suggest otherwise, this ends up actually substantiating my point. It proves that Jesus and his followers, along with the NT writers, had to communicate his Deity in such a way as to insure that neither their audience nor their readers would assume that Christ is the same Person as the Father (or even the Holy Spirit for that matter) since he is not.

 

 

RESPONSE

 

I simply have to chuckle at the desperation. I will summarize Shamoun's argument for you, please do not laugh:

 

-God in the unqualified sense in the OT always refers to the Father unless context states otherwise

 

-Hence Jesus could not call himself God in the unqualified sense because they might mistake him for the Father which is in heaven

 

I guess Shamoun takes us and the Jews for idiots! Could Jesus not say I am God, but not the Father? Rather I am God, the son, the second in the Trinity as the OT taught?!!! Would that have been so hard? All it takes is a few additional words within the sentence to clarify what could become a confusing matter. Jesus could have said:

 

'I am your God, I am the almighty God, but not the Father, rather the Son, the second in the Trinity'

 

Secondly, Shamoun knows he is in a big big hole, so he tries to throw himself out of it. See folks, Sam Shamoun believes that the figure known as the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus, and Shamoun believes this angel of the Lord to be both distinct, and separate from God the Father, yet is still fully God.

 

Shamoun knows he has a big problem, why? Well according to him (he even quotes), the angel of the Lord calls itself God! I re-quote Shamoun:

 

"In the mating season of the flock I lifted up my eyes, and saw in a dream that the he-goats which leaped upon the flock were striped, spotted, and mottled. Then the Angel of God said to me in the dream, ?Jacob,' and I said, ?Here I am!' And he said, ?Lift up your eyes and see, all the goats that leap upon the flock are striped, spotted, and mottled; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and made a vow to me. Now arise, go forth from this land, and return to the land of your birth.'" Genesis 31:10-13

We know that it was not the Father who was informing Jacob that he is the God of the house of God, i.e. Bethel, since the text plainly tells us that it was the Angel of God who was speaking to the patriarch.

RESPONSE

 

Wait a minute! If the term I am God can be used on another other than the Father, then Shamoun's entire argument is blown out of the water! Shamoun's ENTIRE argument is that Jesus never called himself God because in the OT the term I am God usually refers to the Father; hence Jesus did not want to confuse the people. Yet Shamoun just showed us someone other than Father calling itself God, hence Shamoun just shot himself in the foot!

 

Now if all of what Shamoun said is true, if the angel of the Lord is a pre-incarnate Jesus, and this angel said it is God, and if the Jews of the OT believed it, then why in the world would the following happen:

 

In fact, for Jesus or any of his contemporaries to simply come out and say that he is God, in those exact words, would have caused confusion since to first-century monotheistic Jews the term "God" meant the Father who was in heaven. Thus, both Jesus and those who bore witness to him such as the Baptist had to speak in a manner that would not convey this wrong notion that Jesus is the same Person as the Father, since he was not, while at the same time making sure to communicate the point that Christ is in fact fully God in nature.

 

Why would they be confused? The angel of the Lord is not the Father, and it calls itself God, hence other persons who are not the Father have identified themself as God, so why would the Jews be confused?!

 

The only reason why the Jews would be confused my friends is because the OT taught no Trinity, the reason why the Jews believed that God was the Father was simply because that was their God, they didn't know any others, whether it be a son, or an angel of the Lord!

 

Thirdly, I go back to another point, and for the sake of convenience I will quote Shamoun's amusing comments:

 

However, even though this is what the Hebrew Bible clearly teaches the fact remains that when the term God is used in an unqualified sense it always refers to the Father. Therefore, since the OT itself bears witness that the term God refers to the Father, unless there is something in the context to suggest otherwise, this ends up actually substantiating my point. It proves that Jesus and his followers, along with the NT writers, had to communicate his Deity in such a way as to insure that neither their audience nor their readers would assume that Christ is the same Person as the Father (or even the Holy Spirit for that matter) since he is not. when the inspired Hebrew writers wanted to make sure that their readers knew that the specific Person who was appearing and speaking as God was someone other than the Father they would have to state this in some manner or fashion.

RESPONSE

 

I particularly love the last part of Shamoun's statement, where he says:

 

 when the inspired Hebrew writers wanted to make sure that their readers knew that the specific Person who was appearing and speaking as God was someone other than the Father they would have to state this in some manner or fashion.

 

Yes, they could, so why didn't Jesus simply say 'I am God, but do not mistaken me with God the Father, no, I am God the son, the second in the Trinity'. There you go, that is a very simple easy way of clarifying the position and making sure the people were not confusing Jesus with the Father.

 

Let us now summarize what we have so far:

 

-Shamoun believes the OT teaches a Trinity

 

-However so Shamoun believes that in the OT the term GOD is usually used for the Father

 

-Hence the reason why Jews would get confused if Jesus said I am God is that they might have mistaken him for the Father, or that they couldn't believe such a thing because the Father was in heaven

 

-Yet according to Shamoun the angel of the Lord, who is not the Father, calls itself God, hence someone other than the Father called itself God

 

-So if someone other than the Father called itself God, then why would Jews be confused if another person in the Trinity other than Father called itself God

 

-The reason why the Jews would get confused about a man saying he is God is because they never believed such a thing in the first place

 

-If the OT really did teach the Trinity then there would be no confusion in first place

 

-Confusion arises because there was no Trinity

 

-Shamoun admits they would have gotten confused

 

-Shamoun smoked himself

 

I just had to add the last one there; it makes it look nicer don't you think? Shamoun then writes:

 

Moreover, Zaatari keeps assuming that there was one standard Jewish position in the first century AD, and that most if not all of the Jews were unitarians. As anyone who has studied the scholarly literature on the subject knows there were various competing Jewish beliefs in existence both before and during the time of Christ since Judaism was not a monolith.

In light of this, which Jews is Zaatari talking about?

RESPONSE

 

I'm talking about the Jews whom you referenced in the following quote:

 

In fact, for Jesus or any of his contemporaries to simply come out and say that he is God, in those exact words, would have caused confusion since to first-century monotheistic Jews the term "God" meant the Father who was in heaven. Thus, both Jesus and those who bore witness to him such as the Baptist had to speak in a manner that would not convey this wrong notion that Jesus is the same Person as the Father, since he was not, while at the same time making sure to communicate the point that Christ is in fact fully God in nature.

 

These Jews Sam, these ones. :)

 

And Allah Knows Best!

 

www.muslim-responses.com

 

P.S. due to this confession by Shamoun the above quote also refutes the following article of his:

 

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zaatari/proverbs30_4.html